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Andrew

The Next Four Years of American Insanity

396 posts in this topic

32 minutes ago, Koldes said:

Good point. You acknowledge it is indeed religious persecution, but it's totally okay because they are violent, right?

We are in agreement on this. The ban has nothing to do with bigotry like fools would say. If Trump simply didn't like different religions, bans would be placed on buddhism or something. It has to do with the people following this religion committing violent acts. The violence is the reason for the ban, not the religion. The religion is simply why the people commit the violence.

34 minutes ago, Koldes said:

You and I are in agreement - we should also ban Christians from America too since Robert Deer was an avid Christian extremist who killed several people at the Planned Parenthood in Colorado. And several abortion clinics have been bombed and doctors murdered due to Christian beliefs. There's a lot more examples, too many to list, really. We're a little late banning Christians who are a part of the KKK and killed and lynched a lot of black people, but if you're going back 15 years to 9/11, I suppose I can go back 50 years to that time period.

How do you propose we get out all of these dangerous, violent Christians out of the country?

I don't get your point. The middle east has been war ravaged forever and the terrorist attacks from Muslims far outweighs the terrorist attacks from other religions. I really don't get why people are mad at the government over this. If there were italian terrorists all over the world and I couldn't get into England because italians were temporarily banned until increased background checks could be implemented, I wouldn't be mad at the government trying to keep its citizens safe, I'd be mad at the terrorists ruining it for the vast majority of italians that are innocent.

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7 minutes ago, Mike said:

The middle east has been war ravaged forever and the terrorist attacks from Muslims far outweighs the terrorist attacks from other religions. 

Here in America? 

No.

Not even close. 

7 minutes ago, Mike said:

I don't get your point. 

That was the point I was making. Here in our country, Christianity is the #1 killer within religious extremism. If we fear religious extremism enough to do everything possible to keep our country safe, including infringing upon people's rights and persecuting people for their religious beliefs, why wouldn't we include Christianity? 

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1 hour ago, Koldes said:

That was the point I was making. Here in our country, Christianity is the #1 killer within religious extremism. 

What? lol

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Quote

I'm from Puerto Rico, and we have a 0 tolerance immigration policy. Cubans, Haitians, Dominicans that arrive by boat are deported immediately, no questions asked.

Quote from some random youtube guy. Hmmm food for thought.

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1 hour ago, RainbowDragon said:

Quote from some random youtube guy. Hmmm food for thought.

Well they won't become the 51st state with that attitude. 

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34 minutes ago, pen said:

Well they won't become the 51st state with that attitude. 

There will never be a 51st state. They had to add fake states like Alaska and Hawaii just to make it an even 50, they're not gonna mess that all up and go to 51.

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On 2/2/2017 at 10:20 PM, Chris7 said:

I choose to stay out of political discussion on here, and pretty much everywhere, but I saw this today and laughed. Thought everyone could use a lighthearted joke

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He makes a fair point actually. It's more effective to work with those you don't agree with rather than refusing to do so and doling out negative sentiments to them. Compromise goes a long way in politics. That being said, it would certainly be helpful if Trump and his personnel would meet the left halfway, even just slightly more.

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On 2/3/2017 at 10:43 AM, Koldes said:

Good point. You acknowledge it is indeed religious persecution, but it's totally okay because they are violent, right?

You and I are in agreement - we should also ban Christians from America too since Robert Deer was an avid Christian extremist who killed several people at the Planned Parenthood in Colorado. And several abortion clinics have been bombed and doctors murdered due to Christian beliefs. There's a lot more examples, too many to list, really. We're a little late banning Christians who are a part of the KKK and killed and lynched a lot of black people, but if you're going back 15 years to 9/11, I suppose I can go back 50 years to that time period.

How do you propose we get out all of these dangerous, violent Christians out of the country?

 

Let's make a distinction here. Al Qaeda, ISIS, Hamas, etc. are NOT Muslims. Robert Deer and organizations like WBC and KKK are NOT Christians. These kinds of people are fanatical to the point of being devoid of moral scruples. They are completely removed from the faith which they believe they serve.

Now, stepping away from that tangent, I think Trump's immigration ban was very poorly thought out. It never should have been rolled it out.

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12 hours ago, Bladenit09 said:

Let's make a distinction here. Al Qaeda, ISIS, Hamas, etc. are NOT Muslims. Robert Deer and organizations like WBC and KKK are NOT Christians. These kinds of people are fanatical to the point of being devoid of moral scruples. They are completely removed from the faith which they believe they serve.

I disagree.

The difference between people like ISIS and WBC and non-extremists is simply a literal reading of the texts versus a figurative reading of the texts. ISIS/WBC read word for word what is written down, and follow it to the letter. Non-extremists, over the centuries, have liberally modified what they read, what they listen to, how they apply it in their lives, etc. I'd argue that these people have actually formed their morals and beliefs outside of religion and then applied it to the text, rather than the other way around. In other words they are "less Christian" than true, literal readers. This is obviously the best thing that the modern world could ask for and what we should encourage, but saying that ISIS/WBC aren't Muslims/Christians seems to me, to be distorting the perception of things. Just because modernized/liberalized Christians/Muslims have ignored much of the text, including blatant contradictions and commands to kill people, commit acts evil, etc, doesn't mean ISIS is "not Muslim." That's why they're called "moderates" because they essentially practice the religion and its readings moderately. 

Just as one point of reference, an interview I listened to with a former member of the WBC is available. She was born and raised in the WBC, and all of her family is in it, they have disowned her for leaving - she discusses all of everything we're talking about, and likens her own family, and their own values to being very similar to ISIS. She talks a lot about how the readings connect to their thoughts, and their thoughts connect to their actions. Check it out. It's long but super fascinating. 

 

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7 hours ago, Koldes said:

I disagree.

The difference between people like ISIS and WBC and non-extremists is simply a literal reading of the texts versus a figurative reading of the texts. ISIS/WBC read word for word what is written down, and follow it to the letter. Non-extremists, over the centuries, have liberally modified what they read, what they listen to, how they apply it in their lives, etc. I'd argue that these people have actually formed their morals and beliefs outside of religion and then applied it to the text, rather than the other way around. In other words they are "less Christian" than true, literal readers. This is obviously the best thing that the modern world could ask for and what we should encourage, but saying that ISIS/WBC aren't Muslims/Christians seems to me, to be distorting the perception of things. Just because modernized/liberalized Christians/Muslims have ignored much of the text, including blatant contradictions and commands to kill people, commit acts evil, etc, doesn't mean ISIS is "not Muslim." That's why they're called "moderates" because they essentially practice the religion and its readings moderately. 

Just as one point of reference, an interview I listened to with a former member of the WBC is available. She was born and raised in the WBC, and all of her family is in it, they have disowned her for leaving - she discusses all of everything we're talking about, and likens her own family, and their own values to being very similar to ISIS. She talks a lot about how the readings connect to their thoughts, and their thoughts connect to their actions. Check it out. It's long but super fascinating. 

 

I understand your point of view and that podcast was very enlightening. I think it's all about interpretation. As a Christian myself, I have never once thought that the entirety of the Bible was meant to be taken literally. Lots of metaphorical and other figurative stuff going on. The same can be said for the Koran. The real issues occur when these texts are interpreted too literally or even outright erroneously.

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1 hour ago, Ruiner said:

Make no mistake, this is the most goddamn terrifying thing he's said yet. 

I think it's terrifying in general that he feels the need to tweet every fucking opinion he has regardless of what it involves. I do find it somewhat amusing that a lot of his tweets boil down to vocabulary a third grader would use though. Then it gets terrifying again.

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What a troll. I still can't believe the deplorables elected that guy who gets butthurt about everything that doesn't go his way. #crybabytrump

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17 minutes ago, NinjaNick101 said:

What a troll. I still can't believe the deplorables elected that guy who gets butthurt about everything that doesn't go his way. #crybabytrump

The thing is that it isn't just that. He's planting seeds to undermine the judicial system if/when another terrorist attack happens. Gives him ammo to tell everyone that it's safer if there aren't checks on his power. There hasn't been such a test on our democracy yet. This is the shit people mean when they compare him to Hitler--that's Hitler shit. 

I just hope he's not an outright sociopath who would conspire an attack from the inside to speed things up. I don't know if he'd do that. But then there's Bannon, so I'm fairly confident WOULD do that. 

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6 hours ago, Bladenit09 said:

I understand your point of view and that podcast was very enlightening. I think it's all about interpretation. As a Christian myself, I have never once thought that the entirety of the Bible was meant to be taken literally. Lots of metaphorical and other figurative stuff going on. The same can be said for the Koran. The real issues occur when these texts are interpreted too literally or even outright erroneously.

Did you listen to the whole podcast? If so, impressive. It's long!

You might not see the Bible as being taken literally, but polls show that the vast majority of Americans believe it is the word of God. 28% believe that it needs to be taken literally.

Throughout our history, a lot of the stuff that is written in the Bible WAS done as it instructed, and it was only with 'modernization' and 'enlightenment' and other various ways of criticizing the religion that a lot of those things faded away. Essentially, people have become less and less religious and hang onto the pieces of the religion that they like.

Muslims haven't modernized to the degree that Christianity has for a lot of reasons, but one being that they're so segregated and the penalty for leaving Islam is death. Much harder to do. That's a part of the problem, they're essentially 14th century mentalities (that haven't modernized like Christianity has) with 21st century weapons, like AK47s and bombs. Heaven forbid they get nukes..

Telling someone "You're taking this too literally" to me, is kind of a cop out. They are, to me, being the 'purist' of that religion, and those who look at things figuratively are the ones who are changing the religion. For example, if something can be interpreted in your own way, like a story you read - how do you know what the message is? Who gave you the morals to feel the way you do, so you can read the story and learn the morals? To me, the answer is: Not religion. But a lot of people credit it with the religion they're practicing. WBC and ISIS are basically purists who say "What was written was written by God and we have to follow every letter." 

I just think that it's inaccurate and extremely biased to say "They're not real Christians" or "They're not real Muslims" when they're the ones following the holy texts to their every word. I would actually argue that they're the "true Christians" and those who do not practice what they do are kind of "having their cake and eating it too" type of thing. Take the good stuff you like, leave out the bad! 

P.S. Nothing I'm saying is directed at you specifically. When I say you, I just mean "one'. I mean no disrespect to your personal beliefs. 

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1 hour ago, Koldes said:

WBC and ISIS are basically purists who say "What was written was written by God and we have to follow every letter."

Actually that is not accurate. The Terrorists factions of the faith are more like cults.  They twist the words of the faith to their own means and follow it to their interpretation. Very few religions still hold to every word of their faiths.  They have changed with the times.  I agree not to the extent of "Christians", but that is because most of those who label themselves "Christians" are not faithful at all.  Your actions show your faith, not your words.

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8 hours ago, assman said:

Actually that is not accurate. The Terrorists factions of the faith are more like cults.  They twist the words of the faith to their own means and follow it to their interpretation. Very few religions still hold to every word of their faiths.  They have changed with the times.  I agree not to the extent of "Christians", but that is because most of those who label themselves "Christians" are not faithful at all.  Your actions show your faith, not your words.

I disagree. They do go by the letter of the books and follow everything that's written. "Changing with the times" essentially means "has become less religious". So therefore people that haven't changed with the times must be more religious, more purist, or "true" Muslims/Christians. I completely understand why the majority of honest, good-hearted decent Christians and Muslims would not want the extremists to be associated with them, so I get why people try to distance themselves from them. 

Either way, the point of what I was trying to say to Mike and BreakTheAgony still stands, whether you consider these guys "Not true Muslims" or "Not true Christians"  (We're mostly just discussing use of the English language)  banning people who represent .0001% of a group is silly.

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When liberals scream gun control after a mass shooting, conservatives argue essentially don't judge us all over the actions of a few. Yet when it comes to immigrants or Muslims the argument goes the other way. The hypocrisy on both sides is what feeds the great divide in this country. 

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As much as the young people of today piss me off, one thing I do like about them is that it seems like most of them don't buy into religion just because their parents raised them to believe it. Like a rational person, they'd like to see slightly important things like proof and evidence before they devote their life to God.

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40 minutes ago, assman said:

When liberals scream gun control after a mass shooting, conservatives argue essentially don't judge us all over the actions of a few. Yet when it comes to immigrants or Muslims the argument goes the other way. The hypocrisy on both sides is what feeds the great divide in this country. 

You know, this is actually a very good point. I've heard it a lot lately, and as someone who "screams gun control", I agree. We should stop judging all AR15s based on the actions of a few. I'm willing to stop shouting for gun control if the conservatives are willing to stop judging the Muslims for the actions of a few. 

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31 minutes ago, Mike said:

Like a rational person, they'd like to see slightly important things like proof and evidence

Maybe you should remember this the next time you think that what they're protesting for is "whiny, entitled brats" and maybe they're seeing proof and evidence to feel passionate about something to protest? 

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12 minutes ago, Koldes said:

We should stop judging all AR15s owners based on the actions of a few.

I'm sure that's what you meant to say. LOL

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21 minutes ago, assman said:

I'm sure that's what you meant to say. LOL

Haha no, I worded it funny like that on purpose. 

A lot of the gun control discussion has been about banning that particular weapon, not necessarily just the owners. 

Way to ignore me making a compromise, though... 

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30 minutes ago, Koldes said:

Haha no, I worded it funny like that on purpose. 

A lot of the gun control discussion has been about banning that particular weapon, not necessarily just the owners. 

Way to ignore me making a compromise, though... 

I like the compromise. Actually I think using the AR-15 was a great comparison seeing your about as likely to be shot by a AR-15 as you are a Muslim or Immigrant. Now if we can get about 200 million more people to agree we'll be on to something.  I just wish more people could calm down, breathe, and try to see where the other side is coming from for a minute.  I have a hard time believing any one can be completely liberal or completely conservative.  If we could just find the common ground and work up from there maybe we can "Make America Great Again".

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