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Andrew

The Next Four Years of American Insanity

357 posts in this topic

23 minutes ago, Mike said:

Speech at UC Berkeley from Breitbart contributor canceled after chaos erupts on campus in the students attempt to suppress free speech.

I agree with you on this one. (Like DD's post above) this is an area where my fellow liberals can be hypocritical. 

Free speech is something that needs to be protected, even if it's bad ideas. That is actually the entire point of free speech. Stuff that is simple, nice, popular doesn't need to be protected. Controversial speech is what needs the protection. Milo has some good ideas, but he has a ton of really shitty ideas, and his shitty free speech should be protected. (And yes, Ruiner is right - he's simply just a troll and want to get people worked up for his own self interests.)

UC Berkeley is a public institution, and in my opinion, should have similar protection of speech. After all, most of the time, the invited guest (like Milo Y) was invited there, accepted by the school, etc. Instead of screaming him down or protesting him, you should beat him in a battle of ideas. I'm confident I could destroy him in an argument, but a lot of people can't. Easier to just shut him down with protesting. Safe spaces are not what you should be doing in college - you should be learning about things that scare you, that feel uncomfortable, and that make you think. Ironically, Berkeley was a huge civil rights area decades ago, and most of that was because they DIDN'T provid safe spaces for people not to hear scary things, they actually endorsed these new ideals and beliefs. 

If it was a private school, I'm okay with not allowing him there. Just like a private business, should in theory be able to reject any customers for whatever reason they want.

My fellow liberals did something similar when one of them punched that neo-nazi Richard Spencer last week. Don't like what he has to say? Punch him in the face to shut him up instead of beating him in a battle of ideas and humiliating his belief system. Guess what wanting to shut someone down with violence is? Fascism.

What Milo stands for is mostly garbage, and what these kids stand for, most of the time I'd agree. But safe spaces, protesting someone's speech, punching a nazi in the face, I'm just not okay with. It's not right.  

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1 hour ago, Mike said:

Speech at UC Berkeley from Breitbart contributor canceled after chaos erupts on campus in the students attempt to suppress free speech.

UC Berkeley is like the most radical left place in the US.

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1 hour ago, Koldes said:

He, like many others, sees that all Jihadists are Muslims, and feels all Muslims are Jihadists.

I don't think he feels this way. Most terrorists look the same and come from the same general area. Should we not use this information to our advantage to keep ourselves safe? I'm not in favor of the temporary ban but I believe he is doing it for the right reasons. If temporarily stopping people coming in until they can find a way to have better screening can prevent a terrorist from coming to America, shouldn't we all be okay with that? I honestly feel like most liberals don't even care if another 9/11 happens. They're more concerned with letting everyone into the country just because it's the nice thing to do.

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27 minutes ago, Mike said:

I don't think he feels this way. Most terrorists look the same and come from the same general area. Should we not use this information to our advantage to keep ourselves safe? I'm not in favor of the temporary ban but I believe he is doing it for the right reasons. If temporarily stopping people coming in until they can find a way to have better screening can prevent a terrorist from coming to America, shouldn't we all be okay with that? I honestly feel like most liberals don't even care if another 9/11 happens. They're more concerned with letting everyone into the country just because it's the nice thing to do.

Again by banning countries that have never spawned a US terrorist attack while allowing the significant offenders like Saudi Arabia to come through with no fuss.

You're right in saying a lot of them come from the same area, why aren't you upset that that area isn't affected by the ban?

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5 hours ago, Koldes said:

I know you weren't speaking to me, but I'd like to give my $.02 if you don't mind.

Both sides of the aisle can speak and think hypocritically. The misogyny of the Muslim world is an area where my fellow liberals are extreme hypocrites. Same thing with Islam's anti-homosexual feelings. If a Christian baker refuses to bake a cake because of his religion, I'd tell him to go screw himself. If a Muslim wants to throw a gay person off a roof in Egypt, my fellow liberals justify it by saying "it's just a part of their culture." It's unacceptable in either example. The same can be said for women's rights. 

With that being said, if Trump's ban had something to do with the equality of women and gays, that would be a much different thing to discuss. He is, as you stated, a huge misogynist, he has 0 intention of stopping them because of their feelings on gender. He has many documented issues with women. The other problem is that conservatives have been fighting women's rights and gay rights for the past 60-100 years. All of the progress we've made has been DESPITE them and AGAINST them rather than because of them. To dislike Muslims because of the same type of shit the conservatives pull, its hypocritical. He wants to try to ban Muslims because he preys on fear. He, like many others, sees that all Jihadists are Muslims, and feels all Muslims are Jihadists. The ban is simply ignorant, inhuman, narrow and possibly unconstitutional. 

Muslims, stereo-typically being misogynistic, is not a reason to accept 0 refugees. Assimilation, modernization and liberalization of belief systems can easily happen, even to misogynistic cultures. Fear of death and murder is the only true card that Trump has to play for banning Muslims. 

@RainbowDragon Koldes answered your questions much more eloquently than I ever could. 

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6 hours ago, Mike said:

Speech at UC Berkeley from Breitbart contributor canceled after chaos erupts on campus in the students attempt to suppress free speech.

Good; Milo Yiannodouchebags isn't welcome anywhere. Also, rioting isn't welcome anywhere neither. 

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9 hours ago, Mike said:

I honestly feel like most liberals don't even care if another 9/11 happens.

There's not a lot that people can say or do where I say "Well, there's no point in talking to them." but this is on that list. No real reason for me to try to have a respectful, pleasant discussion if you feel this way. If you really feel people like me don't care if another 9/11 happens, then anything I can say would be pathetic and stupid, and it seems pointless to try to converse if someone looks at me like that. 

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10 hours ago, Mike said:

I honestly feel like most liberals don't even care if another 9/11 happens. They're more concerned with letting everyone into the country just because it's the nice thing to do.

That's ironic, I feel many conservatives want another 9/11 so they can justify their bigotry and say "I told you so".

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10 hours ago, Andrew said:

Again by banning countries that have never spawned a US terrorist attack while allowing the significant offenders like Saudi Arabia to come through with no fuss.

You're right in saying a lot of them come from the same area, why aren't you upset that that area isn't affected by the ban?

I'm sorry but beheading U.S. nationals overseas and then airing it on TV and there internet IS A U.S. TERRORIST ATTACK.  

Every time ISIS beheads a U.S. citizen they are trying to invoke fear and terror, therefore they are committing an act of terrorism.

When a "pirate" from Somalia hijacks an American vessel at sea, that IS A U.S. TERRORIST ATTACK.

Not all acts of terrorism have to involve bombs or things blowing up.  

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4 hours ago, BreakTheAgony87 said:

I'm sorry but beheading U.S. nationals overseas and then airing it on TV and there internet IS A U.S. TERRORIST ATTACK.  

Every time ISIS beheads a U.S. citizen they are trying to invoke fear and terror, therefore they are committing an act of terrorism.

When a "pirate" from Somalia hijacks an American vessel at sea, that IS A U.S. TERRORIST ATTACK.

Not all acts of terrorism have to involve bombs or things blowing up.  

By this mentality, should we ban all Trump supporters from the US because a Trump supporter shot up a mosque killing 6 people this past week? If (I don't know if there is) there is a source to confirm he's a Christian, is it safe to say we shouldn't allow Christian Trump supporters in the country. Or maybe we should ban the guns that he used to do it? 

No, we won't ban the Trump supporters, Christians, or guns, because we realize when there are BILLIONS of people on the planet that the actions of a few assholes do not represent the entire community. ISIS makes up maybe .0001% of Muslims, but banning them because you're afraid and scared isn't logical or rational. 

I find it interesting that no Trump supporter I've seen online (nor Trump himself) has even ACKNOWLEDGED the mosque shooting. Probably doesn't fit a narrative of the evil Muslims coming to kill Western civilization. 

I also find it interesting that Trump and his supporters often call the left "snowflakes" yet they are the ones that constantly talk about being scared and having fear for things that can harm them, especially when it's like 1 in 3 billion chance it actually happens

Another thing I'd like to say is - you seem pretty worked up over the beheading that you've seen. I can understand since it's a terrible, graphic, inhuman thing for them to do. You mentioned how it's an act of terrorism attempting to invoke fear and terror. You're right. 

Do you know what else it's designed to do? It's designed to have you panic, freak out, and hate their land and their people as a whole. Although they do not speak for their entire people, they want you to think that they do, and view them in the same light. It's designed for us to bridge a divide between our cultures even more, pushing Islam further away from getting liberalized/modernized. It's designed to draw our soldiers over there to them. Guess what is on the top list for ISIS members? Killing American soldiers in their motherland.  You are simply buying into their propaganda and terrorism by justifying a ban of millions of people (up to 1.5+ billion if we ban them all) because of the actions of what, 20-50 thousand?

Guess who ISIS murders and terrorizes more than Americans or Christians? Other Muslims. Those Muslims are fleeing for asylum FROM ISIS. They are not a part of ISIS. Guess who Somalian refugees are fleeing from? Murderous assholes like Somalian pirates.  

I feel like the people with your mentality that were alive in the 1940s, would have thought that the Jews are apart of the Nazi movement, rather than the victim of such things. That is still a black mark on our history, and is still impacting us today. The difference is much easier to see now, but I think you have trouble disseminating the difference between Middle Eastern cultures. 

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58 minutes ago, Koldes said:

By this mentality, should we ban all Trump supporters from the US because a Trump supporter shot up a mosque killing 6 people this past week? If (I don't know if there is) there is a source to confirm he's a Christian, is it safe to say we shouldn't allow Christian Trump supporters in the country. Or maybe we should ban the guns that he used to do it.

By that mentality, should we ban all people who are against Trump because a bunch of inmates who were in a Delaware prison rioted and took control of part of that facility.  They claimed they did so because of poor conditions and President Trump.  Well a Correctional Officer was killed in that riot.

This argument works on both sides dude.

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2 minutes ago, BreakTheAgony87 said:

By that mentality, should we ban all people who are against Trump because a bunch of inmates who were in a Delaware prison rioted and took control of part of that facility.  They claimed they did so because of poor conditions and President Trump.  Well a Correctional Officer was killed in that riot.

This argument works on both sides dude.

I think his point is that it's a stupid argument, not to make the argument work.

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5 minutes ago, BreakTheAgony87 said:

By that mentality, should we ban all people who are against Trump because a bunch of inmates who were in a Delaware prison rioted and took control of part of that facility.  They claimed they did so because of poor conditions and President Trump.  Well a Correctional Officer was killed in that riot.

This argument works on both sides dude.

It doesn't work on both sides because I am not advocating to ban anyone... at all... period...

The point I was making seems to not have been caught - I was trying to say, why allow when something happens .0001% of the time to force us to ban people out of fear of that .0001%? 

The simple fact of the matter is, for 99.9% of things in life, that is exactly how your brain works. You eat food, you drive cars, we have babies, we have sex (if we're lucky!), we make friends, we go swimming, we do all of these things all the time taking risk factors in mind, and for almost everything in life, if there's a 1 in 3 billion chance of something happening, we don't ban it from our lives. When you allow fear and hate to control your life, that's where you make the exception. 

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8 minutes ago, BreakTheAgony87 said:

By that mentality, should we ban all people who are against Trump because a bunch of inmates who were in a Delaware prison rioted and took control of part of that facility.  They claimed they did so because of poor conditions and President Trump.  Well a Correctional Officer was killed in that riot.

This argument works on both sides dude.

Way to miss the most obvious point imaginable, dingus.

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17 hours ago, Andrew said:

You're right in saying a lot of them come from the same area, why aren't you upset that that area isn't affected by the ban?

Because if I'm not in support of the ban in the first place, why would I be upset that more countries aren't a part of it?

8 hours ago, Koldes said:

There's not a lot that people can say or do where I say "Well, there's no point in talking to them." but this is on that list. No real reason for me to try to have a respectful, pleasant discussion if you feel this way. If you really feel people like me don't care if another 9/11 happens, then anything I can say would be pathetic and stupid, and it seems pointless to try to converse if someone looks at me like that. 

I said most liberals, not all. I wasn't referring to you or anyone else on here in particular. I do feel that way though, mostly with the younger people under 25. If a building blew up, would they really care? They'd protest any response the president would take. You'd see more outrage on social media if some criminal got killed by the police than if thousands died in a terrorist attack. The terrorists responsible would talk about doing the attack because they hate America and these ungrateful, entitled pricks in college would still continue to burn American flags every day. These people think Colin Kaepernick is more of a hero than World War II veterans. These people don't give a shit about anything other than their own agenda.

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Just now, Mike said:

I said most liberals, not all. I wasn't referring to you or anyone else on here in particular. I do feel that way though, mostly with the younger people under 25. If a building blew up, would they really care? They'd protest any response the president would take. You'd see more outrage on social media if some criminal got killed by the police than if thousands died in a terrorist attack. The terrorists responsible would talk about doing the attack because they hate America and these ungrateful, entitled pricks in college would still continue to burn American flags every day. These people think Colin Kaepernick is more of a hero than World War II veterans. These people don't give a shit about anything other than their own agenda.

Clearly you didn't at all pay attention to the reactions of the Orlando nightclub shooting or Sandy Hook or any of the devastating mass tragedies of the last few years.

It was mostly a few dickweeds trying to get attention after those, with the rest of the nation standing together in support.  The only thing liberals were protesting was the issue of gun control, something that more and more needs to be addressed in the wake of those issues, but even then it's not like there were mass marches or anything.

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Mike suffers from the same lack of perspective and analysis of a full situation that BreakTheAgony does - a select few of a group doing something = the entire group.

.001% of all Muslims behead people? Take no chances, ban them.

.001% of all millennials get violent or burn an American flag? They are all entitled pricks.

 

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There's not much else to say about the Berkeley incident last night - The moment you turn something into a riot, if not violence is being condoned towards you, your opinion becomes invalid. Disagreeing with Milo is perfectly okay, debate him, and he often allows students on the opposition to counter him. Outside of Milo going after SJWs and pointing out their hypocrisy, I don't agree with him much on his politics. I still think he's a religiously drenched buffoon BUT what he does, he does really really well. 

As for the Richard Spencer - in the debate thread, I wrote out a long comment discussing the alt-right. I gathered all of that simply by debating with them, if I can do it, there is absolutely no reason people on the left can't. Common arguments that come from the alt-right

- Wanting ethostates

- "White genocide"

- "Jew Conspiracies"

- Race realism

All three of those are easy to counter with a little bit of research. There are nuance differences between neo-nazis and nationlists/separatists, they have things in common, but the differences are important. I've actually had a couple debates with Richard Spencer when I had a Twitter account, he's open to discussion and he never got hostile, never directed any harassment towards me, and was polite. When you come off worse than people like Spencer and his moronic and conspiratorial views, there is a problem. What makes this worse is the amount of celebrities and those in the media advocating the "punch a nazi" - The celebrities aren't the ones going to be out there breaking the law (Except for Shia Labeouf apparently, that crazy bastard), it will just be the fans. Nothing like riling up a fan base to do your dirty work.

As for Trumps "Defund Berkeley" - Stupid tweet.  Berkeley was allowing Milo to speak there, they gave him security and helped him be escorted out when things escalated outside. This isn't he DePaul situation, where the police just stood by and watched and DePaul higher ups celebrated what the students did. Berkeley should not be punished for this. 

Either way, "Antifa" just got Milo's face and name throughout mainstream media, yet again, while they look like the very thing they are against. 

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1 minute ago, Matt said:

There's not much else to say about the Berkeley incident last night - The moment you turn something into a riot, if not violence is being condoned towards you, your opinion becomes invalid.

Exactly. I'm a big believer in that. It completely undermines and de-legitimizes your stance and what you're fighting for. 

I think I'm going to start up a political blog, and I think that's going to be the first piece I write about because of how important it is to me. 

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I choose to stay out of political discussion on here, and pretty much everywhere, but I saw this today and laughed. Thought everyone could use a lighthearted joke

IMG_0086.PNG

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Saying Happy Holidays instead of Merry Christmas = religious oppression and attack on Christianity

Banning millions of Muslim because of their religious beliefs = not religious oppression and not an attack on Islam

Okay! 

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38 minutes ago, Koldes said:

Banning millions of Muslim because of their religious beliefs = not religious oppression and not an attack on Islam

Well if their religious reliefs instruct them to crash planes into buildings...

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2 hours ago, Mike said:

Well if their religious reliefs instruct them to crash planes into buildings...

Good point. You acknowledge it is indeed religious persecution, but it's totally okay because they are violent, right?

You and I are in agreement - we should also ban Christians from America too since Robert Deer was an avid Christian extremist who killed several people at the Planned Parenthood in Colorado. And several abortion clinics have been bombed and doctors murdered due to Christian beliefs. There's a lot more examples, too many to list, really. We're a little late banning Christians who are a part of the KKK and killed and lynched a lot of black people, but if you're going back 15 years to 9/11, I suppose I can go back 50 years to that time period.

How do you propose we get out all of these dangerous, violent Christians out of the country?

 

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