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Koldes

Shooting in Orlando, FL - 50+ have passed away, 50+ more injured

272 posts in this topic

1 hour ago, Brad said:

Well if ISIS didn't exist, would this man have felt the need to do this?

Yes? Crazy people are always going to be crazy, no matter the circumstance.

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It seems he was a bit off his rocker even outside the ISIS nonsense. Apparently he beat his ex-wife and she ended the marriage after only 3 months. 

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I can't believe this thread has turned into talking about religion. Regardless of the person who did this, the underlying problem is that our country needs to do something. We need to have a serious discussion about gun laws moving forward. What's it going to take? It's unbelievable how numb we have become to this stuff because there have been so many mass shootings in the past 10-15 years. The bottom line is that we have to make it more difficult for people to obtain guns. I'm okay with people possessing them, but the more background checks and the more time it takes to get a permit, will deter this from happening. Also, why do citizens need semiautomatic and automatic weapons. There is absolutely no need. The government will always have more firepower than you, that is something the NRA needs to concede. In countries like China we don't see this stuff at all, I wonder why? Our country has the worst problem with this type of violence. What is lost is the many local shootings I see reported here in Sacramento almost 3 times a week. Tell me that sounds normal. 

Part of it is mental health issues, part of it is our non-existent gun laws, part of it is drugs/dealers, organized crime, you name it. If we had more strict rules in place, this wouldn't happen. Did the security company this guy worked for do a background check? The FBI apparently had their eyes on him. His ex-wife filed a police report on him. She had to book an emergency flight just to leave him because he was abusive and trapped her where they lived. We need to have a flagging system. It's easier to get a gun in this country than it is to get a mortgage, good health insurance, or a collecting permit for animals for a biologist. What is wrong with this picture? There are so many domestic terror groups here, as well as overseas terror groups that we can only minimize damage. However in order to minimize the damage we need to flag people who have negative police reports filed on them and have been interviewed by the FBI. This guy only obtained his guns days before this. We'll see, but I'm pretty sure he got them legally. The same goes for the Virginia Tech shooter, who purchased his guns legally, but had many documented mental health issues. I've said on here before, that I was attending Virginia Tech when that happened. My friends friends were killed, a professor I knew was killed, and it still effects my life to this day. The U.S. needs to step up and grow a pair and stand up to special interest groups like the NRA and the likes. They won't take away your right to own a gun, so long as you pass a test, or haven't been committed a felony etc.  

We also need better security in certain places, especially places where large amounts of people gather because that is usually the target for these shooters etc. If I had to walk through airport security every day to get into work, I wouldn't care, if it ensured my safety. I could talk about this forever, but something NEEDS to change, I don't care about the ISIS part. The terror crap will continue regardless. This guy isn't a known terrorist, he was a sympathizer as far as we know right now. The larger picture is that we need to do something about gun laws quickly and about security in public places.

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24 minutes ago, pen said:

Yes? Crazy people are always going to be crazy, no matter the circumstance.

Yes! He would've done this anyways. He had mental issues and I have no clue how a filed police report and more than one FBI interview of this guy didn't send up any red flags?? I'm curious to see if he legally bought his guns, because I'm thinking he did right now.

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We have very strict gun control in Europe, a near total ban in the UK however this didn't stop terrorism they just resorted to using bombs which resulted in 192 dead in Madrid & 52 dead in London.

Banning guns doesn't stop terrorism, there's an ideology that has to be changed.

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12 minutes ago, Salemzorro said:

We have very strict gun control in Europe, a near total ban in the UK however this didn't stop terrorism they just resorted to using bombs which resulted in 192 dead in Madrid & 52 dead in London.

Banning guns doesn't stop terrorism, there's an ideology that has to be changed.

Yes, it won't stop terrorism, however it will stop a lot more crimes committed with weapons obtained legally. Yes, those tragedies happened over there, however I haven't heard of mass shootings by one-off sympathizers quite nearly as much over there as you hear about them here. Where I live I hear about shootings 2-4 times a week. Just 2 weekends ago, there was a drive-by shooting that killed an innocent infant, and another shooting that killed 3 others. This doesn't happen in the UK, nor does it happen in China. I'm not saying we need to ban guns, we need to be more strict about who we sell them to. Please watch Morgan Spurlock's show on CNN, Inside Man. He shows you how easy it is to buy guns here at a gun show in CA. You can obtain one in less than 15 minutes with no background check or anything. It's absolutely insane. An example, just last night in Stockton, CA 4 people were shot (1 dead, 3 injured). http://www.kcra.com/news/1-dead-3-injured-in-stockton-shooting/40017184  That was the headline on the local news until Orlando happened. It's a serious problem over here in the states in addition to the threat of an actual terrorist attack with bombs or planes or whatever else. I'm talking about the rise in gun violence in general in the states in the past 15 years not counting actual terrorism. There are alarming stats on this. We can do something about it.

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Let's play a game. Someone find me the last mass shooting where the shooter obtained the gun legally. Not stole it from someone who had it legally. Went out and actually bought the gun themselves from a licensed dealer

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1 hour ago, jman3000 said:

I can't believe this thread has turned into talking about religion. Regardless of the person who did this, the underlying problem is that our country needs to do something. We need to have a serious discussion about gun laws moving forward. What's it going to take? It's unbelievable how numb we have become to this stuff because there have been so many mass shootings in the past 10-15 years. The bottom line is that we have to make it more difficult for people to obtain guns. I'm okay with people possessing them, but the more background checks and the more time it takes to get a permit, will deter this from happening. Also, why do citizens need semiautomatic and automatic weapons. There is absolutely no need. The government will always have more firepower than you, that is something the NRA needs to concede. In countries like China we don't see this stuff at all, I wonder why? Our country has the worst problem with this type of violence. What is lost is the many local shootings I see reported here in Sacramento almost 3 times a week. Tell me that sounds normal. 

Part of it is mental health issues, part of it is our non-existent gun laws, part of it is drugs/dealers, organized crime, you name it. If we had more strict rules in place, this wouldn't happen. Did the security company this guy worked for do a background check? The FBI apparently had their eyes on him. His ex-wife filed a police report on him. She had to book an emergency flight just to leave him because he was abusive and trapped her where they lived. We need to have a flagging system. It's easier to get a gun in this country than it is to get a mortgage, good health insurance, or a collecting permit for animals for a biologist. What is wrong with this picture? There are so many domestic terror groups here, as well as overseas terror groups that we can only minimize damage. However in order to minimize the damage we need to flag people who have negative police reports filed on them and have been interviewed by the FBI. This guy only obtained his guns days before this. We'll see, but I'm pretty sure he got them legally. The same goes for the Virginia Tech shooter, who purchased his guns legally, but had many documented mental health issues. I've said on here before, that I was attending Virginia Tech when that happened. My friends friends were killed, a professor I knew was killed, and it still effects my life to this day. The U.S. needs to step up and grow a pair and stand up to special interest groups like the NRA and the likes. They won't take away your right to own a gun, so long as you pass a test, or haven't been committed a felony etc.  

We also need better security in certain places, especially places where large amounts of people gather because that is usually the target for these shooters etc. If I had to walk through airport security every day to get into work, I wouldn't care, if it ensured my safety. I could talk about this forever, but something NEEDS to change, I don't care about the ISIS part. The terror crap will continue regardless. This guy isn't a known terrorist, he was a sympathizer as far as we know right now. The larger picture is that we need to do something about gun laws quickly and about security in public places.

Why is it always one or the other? Why can't it be both? Discuss gun control AND an ideology? They are both at play here. 

But yes, I agree, I would say guns are a more serious issue than Islam in America right now. But on a grander scale, dangerous warped ideologies are a more important topic. 

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1 hour ago, Brad said:

Let's play a game. Someone find me the last mass shooting where the shooter obtained the gun legally. Not stole it from someone who had it legally. Went out and actually bought the gun themselves from a licensed dealer

This right here is ban worthy. That's how fucking dumb it is. Holy shit.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3638234/Orlando-terrorist-Omar-Mateen-bought-massacre-weapons-legally-past-week-Florida-despite-two-FBI-investigations-left-watch-list.html

"Omar Matteen the 29 year old who murdered 50 people in cold blood early Sunday morning, legally bought the handgun and assault rifle used in the killing"

Goodbye Harty, I won't miss you. 
 

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54 minutes ago, jman3000 said:

Yes, it won't stop terrorism, however it will stop a lot more crimes committed with weapons obtained legally. Yes, those tragedies happened over there, however I haven't heard of mass shootings by one-off sympathizers quite nearly as much over there as you hear about them here. Where I live I hear about shootings 2-4 times a week. Just 2 weekends ago, there was a drive-by shooting that killed an innocent infant, and another shooting that killed 3 others. This doesn't happen in the UK, nor does it happen in China. I'm not saying we need to ban guns, we need to be more strict about who we sell them to. Please watch Morgan Spurlock's show on CNN, Inside Man. He shows you how easy it is to buy guns here at a gun show in CA. You can obtain one in less than 15 minutes with no background check or anything. It's absolutely insane. An example, just last night in Stockton, CA 4 people were shot (1 dead, 3 injured). http://www.kcra.com/news/1-dead-3-injured-in-stockton-shooting/40017184  That was the headline on the local news until Orlando happened. It's a serious problem over here in the states in addition to the threat of an actual terrorist attack with bombs or planes or whatever else. I'm talking about the rise in gun violence in general in the states in the past 15 years not counting actual terrorism. There are alarming stats on this. We can do something about it.

I think restricting access to guns would be a good idea, it's a sensible thing to do. Background checks are a great idea.

What happened here was that after a mass killing in 1987 semi-automatic rifles & large capacity shotguns were banned. Then in 1996 there was a mass killing at a school and after that hand guns were banned too.

From what I can understand, American gun owners fear that any restrictions on ownership would be the thin edge of the wedge towards a complete ban as happened here?

How would they take the guns away from those who already have them? Are there just too many guns in circulation to make a real difference?

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Ok so tell me,  if he wasn't deemed dangerous what should stopped him from buying the guns? If you say he shouldn't have been able to buy the ar, do you think that would have stopped him? And if he had been unable to purchase the guns legally,  do you think he would have just said screw it is guess I won't do it

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7 minutes ago, Brad said:

Ok so tell me,  if he wasn't deemed dangerous what should stopped him from buying the guns? If you say he shouldn't have been able to buy the ar, do you think that would have stopped him? And if he had been unable to purchase the guns legally,  do you think he would have just said screw it is guess I won't do it

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49 minutes ago, Matt said:

Why is it always one or the other? Why can't it be both? Discuss gun control AND an ideology? They are both at play here. 

But yes, I agree, I would say guns are a more serious issue than Islam in America right now. But on a grander scale, dangerous warped ideologies are a more important topic. 

It seems that discussing gun control, with all the issues that throws up is still easier to debate than the ideology behind this attack?

While gun control may help in some circumstances, sadly it's not going to defeat terrorism as history shows.

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8 hours ago, Salemzorro said:

While gun control may help in some circumstances, sadly it's not going to defeat terrorism as history shows.

Shouldn't we be working towards limiting and reducing the amount of deaths? Even if we accept that we can't stop them all, helping 'in some circumstances' seems like better than not trying because we can't stop it all. Those bombing deaths you mentioned are terrible, but what if there was no gun law and we could show that there would be lots more deaths than what you listed. Wouldn't it then be worth it to have it how it is now?

We still have automotive deaths, but we try to limit them as much as possible: license to drive, no OUI records, seatbelt laws, speed limit laws, etc. I don't know why we don't 'say "well we'll never stop all automotive deaths, so there's clearly no point in trying to make positive changes." 

We've discussed a lot of potential solutions here, gun control, religion, bigotry, etc. But one thing I didn't see discussed is our Congress. After Sandy Hook, almost 90% of the country wanted to see SOME form of gun control legislation happen, but it didn't. Congress doesn't represent their own base. The CDC can't even RESEARCH gun violence because there's legislation preventing it. Research. Seriously.  We're at the point where we can't even discuss guns or you have someone like Mike did earlier immediately jump to banning all guns. They can't make any gun laws because a majority of them (Specifically the RNC) are funded by the NRA. The NRA loves it when there's terrorism or massacres, their gun sales shoot through the roofs immediately afterwards.

I don't know the answer to solving this problem, but I do know that we follow the same cycles every single time this happens and nothing new changes:

Murders

Gun control debate

Anti-banning gun control people freak out, accuse mental health

Mental health gets blamed, no steps taken to offer better mental health help

Transitioned from mental health to Islam 

Islam becomes the enemy, no discussion of guns or mental heath issues

We hate and bomb more middle east locations infuriating, martyring and creating more enemies

Murders

Gun control debate 

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8 minutes ago, Koldes said:

Shouldn't we be working towards limiting and reducing the amount of deaths? Even if we accept that we can't stop them all, helping 'in some circumstances' seems like better than not trying because we can't stop it all. Those bombing deaths you mentioned are terrible, but what if there was no gun law and we could show that there would be lots more deaths than what you listed. Wouldn't it then be worth it to have it how it is now?

We still have automotive deaths, but we try to limit them as much as possible: license to drive, no OUI records, seatbelt laws, speed limit laws, etc. I don't know why we don't 'say "well we'll never stop all automotive deaths, so there's clearly no point in trying to make positive changes." 

We've discussed a lot of potential solutions here, gun control, religion, bigotry, etc. But one thing I didn't see discussed is our Congress. After Sandy Hook, almost 90% of the country wanted to see SOME form of gun control legislation happen, but it didn't. Congress doesn't represent their own base. The CDC can't even RESEARCH gun violence because there's legislation preventing it. Research. Seriously.  We're at the point where we can't even discuss guns or you have someone like Mike did earlier immediately jump to banning all guns. They can't make any gun laws because a majority of them (Specifically the RNC) are funded by the NRA. The NRA loves it when there's terrorism or massacres, their gun sales shoot through the roofs immediately afterwards.

I don't know the answer to solving this problem, but I do know that we follow the same cycles every single time this happens and nothing new changes:

Murders

Gun control debate

Anti-banning gun control people freak out, accuse mental health

Mental health gets blamed, no steps taken to offer better mental health help

Transitioned from mental health to Islam 

Islam becomes the enemy, no discussion of guns or mental heath issues

We hate and bomb more middle east locations infuriating, martyring and creating more enemies

Murders

Gun control debate 

I think that gun control would help reduce the number of firearm related deaths, how you get politicians to implement this when gun owners know the end game is an outright ban like it is here I don't know? 

Political parties here are very similar, none believe in personal freedom & vote together to erode our freedoms. Full state monitoring of the Internet was recently passed, for our own protection you see.

Trying to see how these tragedies in the US can be prevented when as you point out, there's money and power at stake and lives come secondary to that. There's no easy solutions thats for sure.

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4 minutes ago, Salemzorro said:

I think that gun control would help reduce the number of firearm related deaths, how you get politicians to implement this when gun owners know the end game is an outright ban like it is here I don't know? 

This is a part of the problem. We can't make progress on issues sometimes because of the 'slippery slope' argument and how things are going to go. For a long time people didn't want to pass gay marriage because it would lead to people "marrying their own kids or their own dogs." Well, we're a year in, and guess what, nothing has really changed. Same can be said for gun stuff. We can make rules and regulations without it going to the opposite extreme end. I mean, shit, there's 400m guns in this country (which is more than how many people we have) and it's written into our 2nd Amendment, I really don't see any evidence that we'd try to ban them other than people emotionally freaking out.

We can make banking rules and regulations, vehicles, housing ownership, traffic, landscaping, criminal and thousands of other changes to help protect our people without assuming the 100% ban and government control of something, but with guns, we can't even RESEARCH the subject. 

 

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It's a little upsetting that this shooting seems to have blown over a bit already after one day. If one black person got killed because he's black there'd be protests and riots in the streets and every reverend from here to Timbuktu would be holding a press conference. But when 50 gay people get killed it's just a soon to be forgotten massacre.

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7 minutes ago, Mike said:

It's a little upsetting that this shooting seems to have blown over a bit already after one day. If one black person got killed because he's black there'd be protests and riots in the streets and every reverend from here to Timbuktu would be holding a press conference. But when 50 gay people get killed it's just a soon to be forgotten massacre.

Cause there are no "activist leaders" for Gay people who want to keep themselves in the medias eye. 

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8 minutes ago, Mike said:

It's a little upsetting that this shooting seems to have blown over a bit already after one day. If one black person got killed because he's black there'd be protests and riots in the streets and every reverend from here to Timbuktu would be holding a press conference. But when 50 gay people get killed it's just a soon to be forgotten massacre.

I have a few thoughts on this:

We're becoming more and more de-sensitized to these massacres. 

So you're admitting that some black people are killed due to racism? I thought the BLM movement was baseless and people protesting was warrant-less?

The gay community has been facing oppression and bigotry forever. This is an extreme example of the hate against them but it is nothing new. Half of our country and our government has fought to keep them from having equal rights and protections. You think that same country and government is going to weep as hard over their deaths? I don't.

I'm not sure if you're upset that this is 'being blown over' because you care about their lives, or because they're not reacting in the same way the black community would. 

 

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I think he's saying we would be hearing more about this if the hate crime was a white guy shooting up a black club vs the hate crime of a guy shooting up a Gay club. 

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What a fucking idiot

 

There has been a lot of talk of a second attacker or someone that assisted the shooter. Claims that doors were barred so people couldn't escape. In this interview with ABC a survivor does in fact say he and others blocked an exit after escaping fearing that the shooter was coming after them. "So we blocked this door, and we did hear banging. I pray it wasn't anyone trying to escape".
 

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If that's true... that's ridiculous. That person could have blood on their hands. Tough to say what's true so early, though. 

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I understand people might panic under the pressure in a horrible situation like that but if it can be determined that they were responsible for someone dying then they should definitely be held accountable for holding the fucking door shut.

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17 minutes ago, Mike said:

I understand people might panic under the pressure in a horrible situation like that but if it can be determined that they were responsible for someone dying then they should definitely be held accountable for holding the fucking door shut.

If the door was locked the people in charge would be held accountable. Same should be said for people holding the door

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