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Ruiner

The Leftovers

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One thing that REALLY annoyed me about the episode last week was that Laurie never simply said that the picture Kevin sent was of another girl and not Evie. Saying that could've avoided all of the drama of that whole thing.

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Astonishing episode, profoundly, beautifully sad. I'm legitimately shaken up. Tears and shit. 

She's pretty overlooked, but Laurie is such a great character. My second favorite on the show, behind Nora. 

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6 hours ago, Mike said:

One thing that REALLY annoyed me about the episode last week was that Laurie never simply said that the picture Kevin sent was of another girl and not Evie. Saying that could've avoided all of the drama of that whole thing.

So I'm guessing you missed the part where she was telling Kevin that part of helping someone who is delusional is meeting them halfway? Hell, it's pretty much exactly what they did to Leonardo DiCaprio on Shutter Island.

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On 5/22/2017 at 0:07 AM, Ruiner said:

Astonishing episode

Yep. Just watched it now. Awesome episode. I loved how they're not done with the radioactive device stuff. I want to see more of that. I LOVED how Matt stayed with his sister. I like the voice of reason Laurie. One thing I didn't like was how Laurie selfishly killed herself. I was hoping that when her kids called it would've convinced her not to go through with it.

One thing I was confused about...was what up with Nora's story about someone killing themselves scuba diving or something? I get that it led to Laurie doing her thing but I'm confused where the story came from in the first place.

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27 minutes ago, Mike said:

 

One thing I was confused about...was what up with Nora's about someone killing themselves scuba diving or something? I get that it led to Laurie doing her thing but I'm confused where the story came from in the first place.

Didn't it springboard from Laurie calling the device a suicide machine? Nora's also in a troubled state of mind at that point what with Kevin and the machine and everything. 

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On 5/22/2017 at 2:53 AM, pen said:

So I'm guessing you missed the part where she was telling Kevin that part of helping someone who is delusional is meeting them halfway?

John doesn't have a mental illness. There's no reason why she needs to baby him. And his daughter has been dead a long time. The time for mourning is over. Laurie should've told him: "your daughter was blown to bits and Kevin texted me a picture of some random arab girl. Please don't murder Kevin because he's not going to be able to tell your daughter anything."

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Just now, Mike said:

John doesn't have a mental illness. There's no reason why she needs to baby him. And his daughter has been dead a long time. The time for mourning is over. Laurie should've told him: "your daughter was blown to bits and Kevin texted me a picture of some random arab girl. Please don't murder Kevin because he's not going to be able to tell your daughter anything."

Well, except us as the audience know that this isn't exactly true. Kevin can absolutely go into the hotel universe and he could very easily see Evie there. Whether he will or not is anyone's guess.

But yes, in reality, they don't know that Kevin is or isn't delusional (about this, anyway), but Laurie is at a place where she is understanding everyone is dealing with this trauma in their own way and need to see it through to get closure, even if it's madness. Kevin is okay with dying, John is okay with helping him. Nora is okay with going into some strange machine, Matt is okay with letting her.

Laurie actually put it pretty eloquently when Kevin asked her if Nora was gone. "We're all gone, Kevin." It's the truth.

Frankly, it wouldn't shock me if the end of this show was just that everyone suicided. i hope it's not though.

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2 minutes ago, pen said:

Frankly, it wouldn't shock me if the end of this show was just that everyone suicided. i hope it's not though.

While I'm fully expecting to be hugely disappointed with the ending, I really hope Lindelof can pull of the ending for once, instead of blowing the game in the 9th inning like usual.

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Thank god this show is almost over and I'll never have to watch another bullshit flash-sideways episode again. Honestly I'm glad that this show was essentially canceled and we only get eight episodes to end it. When this show is on its game it's some of the best TV I've ever seen. One episode it will be incredible but then the next episode Kevin Sr. will be dancing to indian music. One episode it will be incredible but then the next episode President Garvey will be killing his assassin twin brother in Imaginationland. I've never seen a show so frustrating. I'm fully expecting no real answers in the finale and we'll just get more bullshit with holy Jesus music playing in the background. This show was at its best when it followed the book in season 1. Then overrated Damon Lindelof got his dirty hands on it and mucked it all up after that.

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25 minutes ago, Mike said:

Thank god this show is almost over and I'll never have to watch another bullshit flash-sideways episode again. Honestly I'm glad that this show was essentially canceled and we only get eight episodes to end it. When this show is on its game it's some of the best TV I've ever seen. One episode it will be incredible but then the next episode Kevin Sr. will be dancing to indian music. One episode it will be incredible but then the next episode President Garvey will be killing his assassin twin brother in Imaginationland. I've never seen a show so frustrating. I'm fully expecting no real answers in the finale and we'll just get more bullshit with holy Jesus music playing in the background. This show was at its best when it followed the book in season 1. Then overrated Damon Lindelof got his dirty hands on it and mucked it all up after that.

If you don't think this episode was one of the best this show has had, then I don't know what to do with you. Do you really think this show is about finding out what happened to the departed? If you do, then prepare for disappointment. It's already on record that this show, at its core, is a love story. This has always been about Kevin and Nora. Against the backdrop of an apocalyptic scenario that is driving everyone to madness.

This is pretty much the same argument when it came to Lost. If you're watching the show for the characters, their development, their interactions, then you're going to get exactly what you want out of the program and you're going to enjoy it. If you're watching because you're expecting some kind of deep mystical answer to the Departure, then sorry, you backed the wrong horse. Shoulda taken the Season 2 theme as a hint.

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7 hours ago, pen said:

1. If you don't think this episode was one of the best this show has had, then I don't know what to do with you.

2. Do you really think this show is about finding out what happened to the departed?

3. This is pretty much the same argument when it came to Lost.

1. If you didn't remember from seven years ago, I'm not a fan of flash-sideways.

2. I knew from right off the bat that the Departure didn't seem like the type of thing that would be explained but then this season happened with a big focus being on this machine thing. There was a whole episode devoted to that with Nora and now that's the whole reason why they're in Australia in the first place. They tease further and further but then they don't expect you to want answers to the sci-fi stuff they introduce. Nora is kind of a shitty person. Great character, but a shitty person. I'm not watching to see the conclusion to their love story because as much as I care about Kevin, I don't give a shit if they get back together.

3. Yeah but Lost made a name for itself because of its mysteries. Season 1 was about the characters but every season after that (not including the wasted season 6) was about creating more mysteries that they had no clue how to deliver on because they were clearly making things up as they were going along.

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One thing I did like in the episode was when Kevin shot Meg. He knew there were no repercussions for what he did in this fake world and just shot her cause he didn't like her. That was awesome. I wish the Guilty Remnant didn't get erased from the show. We could've seen more of them this season instead of seeing the adventures of Kevin Sr. and the stuff from yesterday.

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24 minutes ago, Mike said:

One thing I did like in the episode was when Kevin shot Meg. He knew there were no repercussions for what he did in this fake world and just shot her cause he didn't like her. That was awesome. I wish the Guilty Remnant didn't get erased from the show. We could've seen more of them this season instead of seeing the adventures of Kevin Sr. and the stuff from yesterday.

Why are you so hellbent on all the supernatural stuff in this show being fake? 

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3 hours ago, Mike said:

2. I knew from right off the bat that the Departure didn't seem like the type of thing that would be explained but then this season happened with a big focus being on this machine thing. There was a whole episode devoted to that with Nora and now that's the whole reason why they're in Australia in the first place. They tease further and further but then they don't expect you to want answers to the sci-fi stuff they introduce. Nora is kind of a shitty person. Great character, but a shitty person. I'm not watching to see the conclusion to their love story because as much as I care about Kevin, I don't give a shit if they get back together.

Then you were never the audience for this show.

The last episode is called The Book Of Nora, and it's definitely about what happens with Nora and the machine, but I also wouldn't be surprised if the ending brought her and Kevin back together. 

Yes, Nora is flawed. Her worst offense is how petty she can be, but that feels like a symptom of her pain. I'm willing to bet her experience will have her confront her flaws just as Kevin confronted his in this episode.

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And also, is the machine really why they're in Australia? Because it seems more like an excuse for them to run away from their reality, and I think that will ultimately be the real moral of this story. 

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4 minutes ago, pen said:

And also, is the machine really why they're in Australia? Because it seems more like an excuse for them to run away from their reality, and I think that will ultimately be the real moral of this story. 

It certainly felt like the moral of the last episode. Whether it's real or imagined (I'm not sure how imagined really works at this point, with Kevin repeatedly returning when he dies and then coming back to life) this otherworldly place seems to be an introspective device, where you either sort through the mess inside your head of insecurity and fear about love, family, mortality, free will, existentialism, whatever is inside of your brain. You either figure it out and return the mortal coil in miraculous fashion with a new enlightened perspective, or you drink the water, and you stay "dead", existing in this plane, a seemingly RNG'd world sourced from your own headspace. 

It makes sense to me that Mike (at the risk of sounding pretentious) doesn't "get" this side of the show, because it's all about exploring the human condition and experience in a very deep way that either doesn't occur to him or he successfully avoids ever considering. And, I don't want to be condescending, you know, that's cool. It's probably much better to live that way, unconcerned with the incomprehensible nature of your very existence, the fakeness of the man-made reality we inhabit. It's a level of self-awareness I often wish I didn't have. But it's inevitable that we're going to clash when discussing this series, because it simply isn't intended for him. 

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It's also interesting that Mike wants the Guilty Remnant to return because the more I think about this last episode, the more it seems like a deconstruction of the Guilty Remnant.

We have Kevin, who is not just the President, but the President if the Guilty Remnant were in charge. That's why he's dressed all in white. That's why the speech he's given on the teleprompter is all about the dissolution of the family, and why the response Grace's kids give him is so poignant.

And then we have Evie, who sacrificed herself in the living world for the Guilty Remnant, and here she's their most outspoken detractor, singing a song of "protest" and mourning the loss of her family. Meg, who took the cult farther than they've ever gone, and here she's admitting to Kevin that their entire worldview is a lie. A hollow shell, because like it or not, they still feel just like anybody else.

And then we have Patti, gloriously returning to help Kevin to his epiphanies, because she admits to us that Kevin helped her in Season 2 to reach her own epiphanies, and she owed him a debt.

So another moral we can probably take from this episode is that the Guilty Remnant is a load of bullshit. Always was, always will be, and everyone involved has stepped forward to admit this to us.

It's fascinating.

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9 minutes ago, pen said:

It's also interesting that Mike wants the Guilty Remnant to return because the more I think about this last episode, the more it seems like a deconstruction of the Guilty Remnant.

We have Kevin, who is not just the President, but the President if the Guilty Remnant were in charge. That's why he's dressed all in white. That's why the speech he's given on the teleprompter is all about the dissolution of the family, and why the response Grace's kids give him is so poignant.

And then we have Evie, who sacrificed herself in the living world for the Guilty Remnant, and here she's their most outspoken detractor, singing a song of "protest" and mourning the loss of her family. Meg, who took the cult farther than they've ever gone, and here she's admitting to Kevin that their entire worldview is a lie. A hollow shell, because like it or not, they still feel just like anybody else.

And then we have Patti, gloriously returning to help Kevin to his epiphanies, because she admits to us that Kevin helped her in Season 2 to reach her own epiphanies, and she owed him a debt.

So another moral we can probably take from this episode is that the Guilty Remnant is a load of bullshit. Always was, always will be, and everyone involved has stepped forward to admit this to us.

It's fascinating.

My favorite part was the speech: "In the beginning, we spread our message by not speaking and smoking cigarettes... We eventually decided to stop these traditions, because we realized that they were stupid". 

 

Here's a really good interview with Justin Theroux on the episode and the finale: http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/live-feed/leftovers-justin-theroux-penultimate-episode-1008225?utm_source=twitter

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2 hours ago, Ruiner said:

Why are you so hellbent on all the supernatural stuff in this show being fake? 

I've seen this stuff done a bunch of times in other shows. A character gets knocked out, drugged, their heart stopped beating or something else happens to incapacitate them temporarily and their mind goes to this fictional bizarro world where things are different but there are parallels to their real life. The vast majority of the episode is wasted exploring a world that we'll never see again, has no implications on any of the citizens of this fake world and by the end of the episode the person predictably finds something out about themself and then they return to the real world with their mind in a better state because of this bullshit experience. I've seen this crap done a million times else before in shows and it's always meaningless which is why I'm not expecting it to amount to anything on this show.

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5 minutes ago, Mike said:

I've seen this stuff done a bunch of times in other shows. A character gets knocked out, drugged, their heart stopped beating or something else happens to incapacitate them temporarily and their mind goes to this fictional bizarro world where things are different but there are parallels to their real life. The vast majority of the episode is wasted exploring a world that we'll never see again, has no implications on any of the citizens of this fake world and by the end of the episode the person predictably finds something out about themself and then they return to the real world with their mind in a better state because of this bullshit experience. I've seen this crap done a million times else before in shows and it's always meaningless which is why I'm not expecting it to amount to anything on this show.

How has it not already amounted to something? Kevin's experiences there last season informed literally like three quarters of the stuff that's happened this season, if not more. 

Again, you don't seem even a little interested in any sort of deep examination of a character, only things of direct consequence to the exciting story at large. It doesn't matter what Kevin learns about life or himself, only that he did and what it has to do with your idea of the plot. I can't imagine how lesser of a show this would be if Kevin just died, and then we cut to him waking up and he just says out loud what he got out of it. You don't understand what the show is actually about, and you were clearly never on board with it to begin with. You don't give a shit about the meaning of life and man's struggle to find it, you just want an exciting story. Somebody not making something specifically for you doesn't make them overrated, it just means the thing they made isn't for you, and you're egocentric enough to think that means it's beneath you. 

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HBO has the best synopsis ever for the last episode: Nothing is answered. Everything is answered. And then it ends.

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