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Comic Books

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Yeah, I read. That's crazy because the comic I heard is ending at 50 so the chances of this being undone are probably nil. It's also pretty fucking terrifying how it happened too. Let's just say Bebop and Rocksteady got a lot more competent.

 

death-of-donatello-2.png

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Someone on a Yahoo post about this subject, posted a page from the next issue where he is hooked up to a machine still alive. So we will see if it's a comic death that might stick.

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Comic deaths don't stick and people should stop expecting them to.

This one is likely to stick. The series is supposed to end at #50 and they're almost there.

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Someone on a Yahoo post about this subject, posted a page from the next issue where he is hooked up to a machine still alive. So we will see if it's a comic death that might stick.

Well... some people have been suggesting that this may be similar to a previous series where he became a cyborg after a similar attack...

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Translation...comic stories never make sense and people should stop expecting them to.

No, not at all.  You're the one who's always complaining there's no stakes in the Marvel movies because no one dies.  People die in comic books to emphasize those stakes and the tolls of heroism.

 

BUT, because comic books aren't ever going away, and DC would be foolish to ever put Superman in a grave permanently, they always find their way back.  Does that mean their original death means nothing?  Maybe you think so, but you're an idiot.  That Peter Parker eventually returned doesn't take away from the magnitude and emotion of his death storyline.  Peter's death gave way to Miles Morales, and his legacy shaped the way the young Spider-Man became the hero he is today.  When Barry Allen died, Wally West had to rise up and carry the torch, and in his own right became an endearing and beloved character.  Jason Todd may have risen from the grave years later, but his death always hung over Batman's head, and his ultimate return was one of the best stories in Batman's historic legacy.

 

So in short, expecting characters to stay dead is foolish, but that doesn't mean we should stop killing them.  We just need to recognize that some deaths have been handled better than others.  Superman's death and return was garbage for instance.

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Superman's death and return was garbage for instance.

Personal opinion. I don't think it was garbage. Although it is true that the only reason it ever happened is because they were forced to delay their wedding story to sync up with the Lois And Clark TV show and when they were trying to figure out what to do instead, someone joked they should just kill him. And so they did.

I think character deaths are interesting because they allow different writers to explore the aftereffects. Does that mean that the character should then go back in the toolbox? No way, some characters still have interesting stories to tell. Just because some writer decides to explore their death doesn't mean another writer can't still explore their life. That's my issue with Mike's way of thinking: he thinks the only way to create drama is with a death and he doesn't think about the potential for these characters afterward. Hell, most of the characters don't even matter to him.

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Aren't there so many universes in comics that a character can die in one and then be alive in another story, independent of the one in which they died? Or that they could simply reboot it? I'm not sure how serialized mainstream superhero comics are but it seems like there's plenty of room for self-contained arcs where the authors have the freedom to do things such as kill off major characters (which is what I'm gathering is the case with the TMNT story here).

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Aren't there so many universes in comics that a character can die in one and then be alive in another story, independent of the one in which they died? Or that they could simply reboot it? I'm not sure how serialized mainstream superhero comics are but it seems like there's plenty of room for self-contained arcs where the authors have the freedom to do things such as kill off major characters (which is what I'm gathering is the case with the TMNT story here).

DC and Marvel do have multiple universes and of course have Elseworlds and What Ifs respectively, but I think they generally like to have the majority of their stories focus on their main universes. However, you are right in that the option does exist. I guess Turtles Forever also broaches the possibility of multiple Turtles universes too, so there you go.

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Aren't there so many universes in comics that a character can die in one and then be alive in another story, independent of the one in which they died? Or that they could simply reboot it? I'm not sure how serialized mainstream superhero comics are but it seems like there's plenty of room for self-contained arcs where the authors have the freedom to do things such as kill off major characters (which is what I'm gathering is the case with the TMNT story here).

DC and Marvel both have multiple universes but they each have one main universe that probably 90% of their books are dedicated to.  Killing off a character in a "What If?" sort of book seems like a good idea, but really it would be fairly underwhelming since there's no real weight to it.  "What if Superman died" isn't as compelling a conversation as "Superman IS dead, what now?"

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DC and Marvel both have multiple universes but they each have one main universe that probably 90% of their books are dedicated to. Killing off a character in a "What If?" sort of book seems like a good idea, but really it would be fairly underwhelming since there's no real weight to it. "What if Superman died" isn't as compelling a conversation as "Superman IS dead, what now?"

Well I mean the book itself wouldn't be a "what if?" scenario, it'd just be a story that is all canon in and of itself. It wouldn't be any lesser of a story just because it's separate from the main ongoing narrative of the flagship Superman comic. Like, wasn't The Dark Knight Returns the last Batman before they rebooted it with Year One? Of course, Batman didn't die in that one, but all sorts of crazy point-of-no-return shit did and it's not viewed as any less of a classic for it.

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Well I mean the book itself wouldn't be a "what if?" scenario, it'd just be a story that is all canon in and of itself. It wouldn't be any lesser of a story just because it's separate from the main ongoing narrative of the flagship Superman comic. Like, wasn't The Dark Knight Returns the last Batman before they rebooted it with Year One? Of course, Batman didn't die in that one, but all sorts of crazy point-of-no-return shit did and it's not viewed as any less of a classic for it.

Well sure but The Dark Knight Returns also had no ramifications on the universe outside of it's own self-contained story.  Superhero deaths are meaningful because of how the world reacts around them, so one-shots or limited series do a lesser job at showing that impact.  Meanwhile when a character like Wolverine dies in the main Marvel universe, you can see the effects of it in nearly every book you read, because Wolverine's influence is enormous on his world.

 

I'm not saying a self-contained story can't be great, but part of the reason these big events happen canonically and not in alternate universe one-shots is because it makes the events bigger and more important.  The Dark Knight Returns is a great comic, but The Death of Superman actually CHANGED things.

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Not only did Death Of Superman change things in and of itself, but it also introduced the most well-known iteration of Superboy, the character Steel, and reintroduced Hank Henshaw as a credible threat as the Cyborg. Also, the destruction of Coast City by said Cyborg started a chain reaction of events that led to Green Lantern Hal Jordan becoming Parallax, which introduced that character and all the events that followed in the wake of that. Not to mention the popularity of the Death Of Superman led to Knightfall in Batman, which introduced Bane. There's a lot you can trace back to Death Of Superman.

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Well sure but The Dark Knight Returns also had no ramifications on the universe outside of it's own self-contained story. Superhero deaths are meaningful because of how the world reacts around them, so one-shots or limited series do a lesser job at showing that impact. Meanwhile when a character like Wolverine dies in the main Marvel universe, you can see the effects of it in nearly every book you read, because Wolverine's influence is enormous on his world.

I'm not saying a self-contained story can't be great, but part of the reason these big events happen canonically and not in alternate universe one-shots is because it makes the events bigger and more important. The Dark Knight Returns is a great comic, but The Death of Superman actually CHANGED things.

Ah, I see what you're saying. Like I said, I've got little knowledge of the popular superhero comics (I don't have much knowledge of any kind of comics, really, but I've at least read stuff like the Vaughn stuff you recommended, self-contained stories like TDKR and Wanted, and graphic novels like Watchmen) so these are things I didn't consider.

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I have no problem whatsoever if a character comes back in a reboot. Before Brubaker left Captain America, I believe he rebooted it back to WWII. I'm not 100% sure on this as I haven't read the issues yet (even though they've been on my computer for years) but it appears it wasn't tied to the story where Steve Rodgers died. I understand that these characters will be around for years and reboots will obviously be necessary. I just don't like when a character returns in an ongoing storyline, likely using some foolish reason that sounds like a ten-year-old came up with it. Evil clone, version from another dimension, whatever. If a TV show or movie did silly stuff like this, it'd get slammed in reviews. It's a shame that comics have become such a commonplace for this stuff that it's accepted. And I have no evidence that this is true but I'd be willing to bet that a lot of times a major character is just killed off to get headlines, drive up interest and help sales and the writers know full well that they'll be bringing him back soon and the death will basically be forgotten in the grand scheme of things.

 

Well I mean the book itself wouldn't be a "what if?" scenario, it'd just be a story that is all canon in and of itself.

I'm not 100% sure on this but I believe that The Killing Joke was like this. It was a great story but I don't really like these standalone stories not tied to the main story cause I feel like it waters it down. Imagine if one year on AMC they aired a miniseries of The Walking Dead in the offseason showing what would have happened if Rick never got out of the hospital in the pilot and they following the other people around. It might tell a good story but they're watering the main story down by over-exposing the brand with what is essentially a meaningless story.

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The Killing Joke was actually integrated into continuity somewhat, thus Barbara Gordon's numerous years as Oracle.

 

And of course it's done in part to drum up sales and interest, Mike.  EVERYTHING EVER IS DONE TO DRUM UP SALES AND INTEREST.

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But that's not the same at all because we're talking about brands, not singular serial stories. Batman is a timeless character that has had separate stories across movies, shows, comics, and video games, many of them borrowing elements, inventing their own elements, and doing shit that had no effect whatsoever on the others.

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I'm a good bit of the way through book one of Deadly Class now and it's pretty damn awesome. Only two volumes are out so far and the best comparison I've seen is Harry Potter meets Wanted.

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